Tarot Card Skill Tree Discussion

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

What are some thoughts and concerns about the Tarot Card Skill Tree system?

 

Also thoughts on the rare card idea and single one off cards.

 

I for one believe the system itself is pretty huge and ambitious but if done correctly could be huge. I love the idea of the min/max idea being almost none existent. Rare cards are a cool idea but I dont know how I feel exactly on the single card, but maybe there will be a way in which that card can pass around instead of just one player always having it.

[Golden Xan]

I've never been a fan of limited items. I do like having items that are hard to attain, because the challenge makes it interesting to go after them, but knowing that there is something that you can never acquire, and that it is NOT your fault, you just could not acquire it, is not good.

 

But I adored the skill system. It essentially means you should have various different ways to play your class, and that everyone should be branching more and more in their skillset as they level up in the game. I also like a lot that some skills are obtained through quests and exploration, making them rare. That goes into "items that are hard to attain," but not impossible, and it values player effort.

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

but knowing that there is something that you can never acquire, and that it is NOT your fault, you just could not acquire it, is not good.

 

Denis eluded at least in the sense that one off cards can and will return to the world in the case of hardcore players dying, it also seemed like it was in regards to custom cards. So depending on what it means to be a one off card, makes a big difference in this sense.

[Elveone]

I love the skill system. I think it gets the best elements of several games that I like and combines them into something rather unique. I like the idea of collecting skills and finding them by a variety of different means and I like the idea of making the skill my own and of endless progression.

 

I dislike the idea of unique cards that only a single player can obtain because a lot of the time luck is involved in discovering or achieving something first and because only one player would ever experience playing with those skills. I wouldn't really mind it if it is just a cosmetic or even a more powerful variant of another skill that you can obtain otherwise but I think that unique gameplay opportunities should be avoided as the effort of creating them is wasted if only one person ever gets to experience them.

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

I dislike the idea of unique cards that only a single player can obtain because a lot of the time luck is involved in discovering or achieving something first and because only one player would ever experience playing with those skills. I wouldn't really mind it if it is just a cosmetic or even a more powerful variant of another skill that you can obtain otherwise but I think that unique gameplay opportunities should be avoided as the effort of creating them is wasted if only one person ever gets to experience them.

I feel like this is where I am. if its a really cool variant or something cosmetically im ok with that. with the number of possibilities also i feel it would be difficult for it to be something game changing or overpowered. With so many options though it may not even matter in the grand scheme of things

[Meta]

The card-based skill system is ambitious and perfect thematically. I adore the idea of each piece having its own unique lore entry, as well.

 

What I might like to see is even more depth in some of the unique/rare/challenge card where in order to unlock portions of them you have to fulfill certain requirements, such as killing a number of a specific type of enemy in a certain place/way--kill 30 paladins with a cursed weapon on hallowed ground--, or witnessing certain events under certain conditions--witness a demon breach into Malorum during a blood moon--, just some additional unique challenges to keep you working on unlocking portions of these mythical/legendary artifacts (even after the initial challenge of getting them in the first place, yes).

[Denis Dyack]

Great feedback - thanks, everyone. When I get a chance to do a deep dive on the one-offs, I believe perspectives will change. At least I hope so, but rest assured, it is always easy to increase the number from 1 off to very rare easily within the game. We will work with everyone on this and make sure it is best it can be

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

What I might like to see is even more depth in some of the unique/rare/challenge card where in order to unlock portions of them you have to fulfill certain requirements, such as killing a number of a specific type of enemy in a certain place/way--kill 30 paladins with a cursed weapon on hallowed ground--, or witnessing certain events under certain conditions--witness a demon breach into Malorum during a blood moon--, just some additional unique challenges to keep you working on unlocking portions of these mythical/legendary artifacts (even after the initial challenge of getting them in the first place, yes).

This is a really cool idea. The cards are the abilities so maybe for the rarer ones the idea that things are locked behind some special magik or something like that could he interesting giving longevity to aspects of the game.

[Denis Dyack]

This is a really cool idea. The cards are the abilities so maybe for the rarer ones the idea that things are locked behind some special magik or something like that could he interesting giving longevity to aspects of the game.

Agreed, in fact, this is in the design

[Denis Dyack]

What I might like to see is even more depth in some of the unique/rare/challenge card where in order to unlock portions of them you have to fulfill certain requirements, such as killing a number of a specific type of enemy in a certain place/way--kill 30 paladins with a cursed weapon on hallowed ground--, or witnessing certain events under certain conditions--witness a demon breach into Malorum during a blood moon--, just some additional unique challenges to keep you working on unlocking portions of these mythical/legendary artifacts (even after the initial challenge of getting them in the first place, yes).

@Jack Lindsey @Adele Olejarz - take note

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

Agreed, in fact, this is in the design

Really looking forward to this

[Varik Keldun]

I do like the idea of having solo unique items - but as with what most people have stated, purely cosmetic. you spoke of the bloodmoon werebat... which might just be a super-rare card that you can only obtain during a bloodmoon. but say if you were the first to do something truly unique like find the area/boss that drops the card and slay it should be rewarded.

 

Not any more powerful than the rest of the bloodmoon werebat cards - but maybe give it a horned crown or something cosmetic to show it off a little. or even go as far as when other people get their bloodmoon werebat card in later times have a little snip-it that states who found it first, and in what age it was originally found.

 

As an Example.

 

"In the 4th age the vampire lord Faceless Mike ventured deep into the bloodmist forest, where he came upon an alter of a moon, but on this night the moon was crimson, and from the shadows came bloodshriek, who was then felled by Faceless Mike, unto him the power of the bloodmoon werebat transformation was first granted."

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

Not any more powerful than the rest of the bloodmoon werebat cards - but maybe give it a horned crown or something cosmetic to show it off a little. or even go as far as when other people get their bloodmoon werebat card in later times have a little snip-it that states who found it first, and in what age it was found in

I agree with the not any more powerful, but i would want something different than just a crown. Denis mentioned how everyone would definitely know when they saw it.

 

The second half was mentioned to be true.

[Elveone]

IMO more-powerful fits the fiction and it is perfectly fine. After all start playing at different times and have different time to allow for gaming - someone is always more powerful, especially in a game with an endless progression. The problem for me is not about power but about being able to experience everything the game has to offer at my own pace. I don't want to not be able to get a certain skillset because I am not no-lifing the game 24/7 for months so I am not the first one to discover a secret location or solve a particular puzzle in the world. I think there is value in having those ultra-powerful people who have achieved something great and having them as that almost untouchable power-figures. But I also think that it would be a shame if others could not imitate them even with an inferior version of the skill that with time can get almost as powerful as the original but not quite.

 

In fact I think that lesser variants of the skill card existing might actually boost the player's reputation even further if it is handled right. For example Faceless Mike obtains the Ancient Blood Sickle skill card on Twelfth of Auct 220 during the first age. This skill is forever his and it is a powerful attack that creates a giant scythe of blood and cleaves enemies in half. The skill is extremely hard to get to begin with but later someone else achieves the same thing. Then he gets to watch the memory of Mike obtaining the skill for the first time and he gets a Pale Blood Sickle skill card that is less powerful than Mike's and has faded visuals and slightly diminished area of effect. Then the description of the card reads "A pale imitation of the Ancient Blood Sickle created by Faceless Mike on 12th of Auct 220. This version will never be as powerful as the original but with practice perhaps one day you can attain a portion of his greatness." Or something like that.

 

P.S. Another way I don't mind the system working would be the unique cards as an upgrade of the existing non-unique cards. Like the Blood Moon Werebat might be obtained by slaughtering a thousand enemies during the Blood Moon night in Werebat form or something like that. And that is fun for the first one who does it on a whim. But as it is relatively easy to replicate such a feat when you know of it consequent executions are not rewarded or are rewarded with a lesser version.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Elveone

[IvoryWarrior]

What i like the most about this idea of the Tarot card design is that most taro is for telling the fates and we will be telling and making our own fate and we acquire more cards. I like that it will be built in to the lore of the game.

[Livin]

One aspect of the tarot that I am curious about is inversion, a card being upside down, and the impact that would have upon what it represents or provides.

 

I'm also curious as to whether some cards can compliment one another or unlock alternate powers when they're in the same hand. For example there is the vampire's fire ball that you have in your hand of cards, by adding an essence endowment card to your hand you not only strengthen your alternate forms but it also turns the fireball green and now does increased essential damage.

 

Overall though I'm excited and loving every bit of it.

[Sailor Midgard]

There are also implications on the layouts as well. There are many layouts used for Tarot readings such as a simple set of Past, Present and Future with three cards, a 4 points spread invoking the four cardinal directions and a whole lot of others. Some even rename things, like instead of past, present, future they are called Body, Mind and Soul, or changing the directions to the four elements. So will there be spreads for classes later on that change how some cards work as well? Like changing from the first to the second setup I mentioned altering what cards do. This would be way later of course but fun to think about.

[Varik Keldun]

There are also implications on the layouts as well. There are many layouts used for Tarot readings such as a simple set of Past, Present and Future with three cards, a 4 points spread invoking the four cardinal directions and a whole lot of others. Some even rename things, like instead of past, present, future they are called Body, Mind and Soul, or changing the directions to the four elements. So will there be spreads for classes later on that change how some cards work as well? Like changing from the first to the second setup I mentioned altering what cards do. This would be way later of course but fun to think about.

this is an interesting setup - but on the other hand it confuses HOW you play say if "dance macabre" was LMB and "blood drinker" was key R... it does one thing but if you put "dance macabre" on spacebar it does something slightly or completely different... but that in turn takes away from a natural feel of - main attack on LMB - so i honestly dont know how i feel on this idea (could be interesting though!)

[Elveone]

I think you are overthinking it with the inversions and the positioning. I don't think we heard anything in the stream that would suggest those things would matter at all or are even a thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Golden Xan]

I've watched and rewatched the stream and haven't seen any mentioning of cards having multiple different abilities based on their position or orientation. The only "flip" on the cards seem to be the flipping of revealing the talent tree behind it. It is already a lot as it is, if they had different behaviors based on their associated button... it would just become needlessly complicated for the developers. I don't think that's the case.

[Livin]

this is an interesting setup - but on the other hand it confuses HOW you play say if "dance macabre" was LMB and "blood drinker" was key R... it does one thing but if you put "dance macabre" on spacebar it does something slightly or completely different... but that in turn takes away from a natural feel of - main attack on LMB - so i honestly dont know how i feel on this idea (could be interesting though!)

I don't see why the order and placement of the cards should interfere with what buttons they are assigned to. I would argue that the button assignment should be tied to the cards themselves no matter where they are placed, unless I missed something from the stream.

I think you are overthinking it with the inversions and the positioning. I don't think we heard anything in the stream that would suggest those things would matter at all or are even a thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I've watched and rewatched the stream and haven't seen any mentioning of cards having multiple different abilities based on their position or orientation. The only "flip" on the cards seem to be the flipping of revealing the talent tree behind it. It is already a lot as it is, if they had different behaviors based on their associated button... it would just become needlessly complicated for the developers. I don't think that's the case.

Neither of you are wrong, nothing was said about it but the question was never asked from what I can recall. So it could go either way.

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

This is kind of in the vein of positioning of the cards but its also more of a statement/desire of what I would like to see. When it comes to the thought of potential artworks it would be really cool to see card sets. Something that goes from left to right (regardless of the binding associated (maybe that can be switched around)) in a fashion that it is some sort of panoramic view of something. In the end kind of like a gear bonus or visual bonus.

[Roband]

I love the system they are trying to implement, the customisation potential is huge, i also like the idea of using tarot cards as a visual representation

 

I would like to know more about how melee combat works, for what i understood the magic system is a completely different thing but melee is included in the skill system right? (correct me if i am wrong) What i'm curious about is how the combos/attacks chain with one another, like if there are keys for each card to have let's say 3 different combos and 3 different buttons to start them (if you have 3 melee attack cards) or if there is a single combo but you can freely chain in it all the 3 skills with their respective power ups. So yeah i hope they will talk more about that in the future.

 

I like that you can obtain cards doing all sort of activities because this means that you are free to play the game at your own pace and way (what if i want to be a vampire obsessed with ancient history and want just to explore the game locations in my playthrough?) and still obtain skills to help you just like any other player that maybe prefer other activities.

Of course special cards should have their own condition to obtain them and that is fair (like defeating a boss for example), i just hope the drops for these cards are guaranteed and not RNG related, it would be pretty insufferable to spend an evening trying to accomplish whatever the game is asking just to realise that you are not in the xx percentage to have the card dropped.

 

I also like the idea of having special requirements for obtaining a certain card, i hope those requirements will be related to lore and story though. I hate the kind requests like "you have to kill xx enemies", "find xx plants" ecc. (come on this system is potentially endless already there is no need to such trivial things, they would just pull players away imho)

 

As for the "one in a time cards", i think it ulimately depends on how it is implemented and what exactly that means.

The problem with this like others mentioned is that is purely based on luck and how much time you play the game, not the individuals proficency of the players or their tenacity in the way of earning it. I would gladly bow to someone who proved greater skills in playing the game than me rather that realising i couldn't obtain it myself becouse i have a job and a life. I wouldn't mind much if it's cosmetic only though.

 

But we still do not know the details of this: maybe the cards have a limited number of use and after that is lost and another player may attempt to take it. Maybe the use is ulimited but there is a timer on it, and is lost again once it's expired. Maybe it's lost once a player dies (witch would require clearence about what death means, if true death or just loss of phisycal form). Maybe all the options that i just come up with, we don't know yet. So "one in a time" is something to be defined, i will wait for more infos.

Anyway i think it's positive to give everyone a chance to have them, at the very least one player has the possibiity to obtain it once in a while (even if you have to race against 1 million other players you still have in theory your chance to have it), i imagine the server would go crazy once it's confirmed that such a card is free again for the taking for those brave and skillful enough. In the long run i think it would benefit the game longevity more than just having one player forever keeping it, maybe someone who is not even playing anymore (and if these one time cards are related to character death i think this issue would require the developers attention).

[Varik Keldun]

Anyway i think it's positive to give everyone a chance to have them, at the very least one player has the possibiity to obtain it once in a while (even if you have to race against 1 million other players you still have in theory your chance to have it), i imagine the server would go crazy once it's confirmed that such a card is free again for the taking for those brave and skillful enough. In the long run i think it would benefit the game longevity more than just having one player forever keeping it

this seems like the best idea for a solo unique skill - can call them true death skills.

 

maybe someone who is not even playing anymore (and if these one time cards are related to character death i think this issue would require the developers attention).

the problem here is some people have real life issues or go on hiatus for long stretches. So before implementing them there should be a stipulation so noone gets mad that after (X period of time of not logging in - be it a couple ages or a year or what have you the power is lost)

[Elveone]

Honestly - I don't think you even have to remove the card from the original character - if a character is detected to be on hiatus just generate the card for somebody else. If eventually the player comes back and there are two of those cards instead of one - I don't see what the big deal is.