Today it was reaffirmed that banshees are going to be gender locked...

[klokwerkaos]

I really can't speak out against this enough. The designs are really cool but I really have to approach this from a design perspective:

 

In general cosmetics are best left as cosmetics.

 

Gender is cosmetic.

 

I understand wanting to be true to the lore, but you're also making a game for people to consume and enjoy, and sometimes a video game needs to follow video game logics. This is true when we do all kinds of things we take for granted such as: Hit points aren't realistic, magic /undead is a thing at all, etc. There are countless examples fo this that people just accept outright but they are indeed "video game logic".

 

Making everything exact and true to initial lore isn't even a thing since notions of monsters are changed and varied by legends.

 

I can understand say, not taking from Twighlight for vampire influence because it's thematically opposed, but vampires have a huge amount of lores, many of which won't be drawn from real life history, but rather legend lore that has come since (bram stoker's, D&D, etc.).

 

This means you're already taking creative liberties. I'm just asking you strongly consider taking that one step further because at this point you're gating an entire class behind this.

 

Here's the thing... people WILL put up with this, as they do it in lots of other games... but lots and lots and lots of people won't enjoy it or like it and it will be a pain point. Granted something will be a pain point for someone regardless. I just strongly feel gender is not the right hill to die on for cosmetics gating. It's literally less options, less opportunity for cosmetic sales points, and less creative outlet for players. All of those things, personal feelings aside vastly outweight making deadhaus be unique and different in this respect, which can also be a point of value if managed effectively (our monsters are different). Obviously this can be handled poorly or done very well to the point of creating new tropes, breaking new ground and setting new precedents.

 

I know lots of people are likely to have strong opinions in both directions, because of course they will, my goal is not to incite a flame war about it, but rather say I think this is the absolute opposite direction that is best for the game and I've been fully on board for everything else I've seen. Please consider I am staunchly opposed to that in every way that I can be.

 

I want to be clear I'm not needing this option myself, that's how strongly I feel that this is an important direction to go in, that I don't even have a personal horse in the race but absolutely oppose the notion of the cosmetic lock on this as strongly as I can.

 

If there is any way at all this can be altered, I can't stress enough how much I support that direction.

 

If managed effectively this can be an entire net positive minus the X number of people that insist on being the Simpson's comic book guy much to the chagrins of everyone else around them.

[shinybri]

Mike said the term "banshee" literally translates to "female fairy" and I trust the Irishman. Their appearance is historically feminine, there is no denying that. But they aren't human (and were never human) and they don't really HAVE a gender. It is just easier to explain that they are all "female." You're getting extremely hung up on the semantics. In the character creation instead of even having male/female symbols it should just leave them off completely and give only feminine/historically accurate cosmetic options that fit the lore. The feminine-sounding shriek is maybe one of the defining features, as well. I must disagree with you on this one. Edited November 26, 2020 by shinybri

[Vesmé]

I'll admit I was disappointed to hear it was gender locked. I understand the lore has it that way and it's good to respect that. But just the same was a bit disappointed.

[Quamobrem]

I don't think this is the worst possible thing, given that the other classes aren't gender-locked so everyone has *something* they can play and be comfortable with, but I do think it's maybe worth considering that some people (Largely transmen/transmascs) are going to feel uncomfortable playing a woman but will want to play with the mechanics of the banshee. Not all transmascs, and I'm not sure how often this will be a problem or to what degree, but I do expect it to, and I feel sorry for those people. At the very least, I think we should be careful about being aggressive and cruel about banshees being gender locked.

[shinybri]

I think we all might be closer to the same side than it appears, because I wouldn't mind a gender-neutral banshee. That's what most of the classes are going to be, I predict, since gender roles do not matter to the dead. Gender (fixed in another post: sex not gender) is how life procreates, which the dead don't do. We might be thinking too much in terms of pop culture or the current cultural tensions that I know a lot of my friends have to deal with every single day. I think what I personally am arguing against is a super buff traditionally manly banshee, as that would be absolutely wreck the immersion for me. But your banshee doesn't have to look like the one they showed today. That particular banshee is named Keeva, and exists in the lore, she isn't just all banshees.

 

I want to see some frail-ass ghastly banshees, and I don't care bout the boobs. Great if they're there, great if they're not. But the slider has to stop somewhere to keep it within the lore. Isn't it kind of taking away from all identifying women, who get a class where men are excluded? Seeing a role that only a woman/ feminine identifying can absolutely destroy with, it just means something to me if that makes sense. I do understand that it's impossible to make everyone happy but we can make compromises along the way.

 

Having said all this, what do you guys think would be a good way to represent nonbinary and trans? So others can have that same feeling I described above about watching women wreck shit. Suggestions would be awesome, maybe another class can be that representation that definitely does need to be in more games. I do however think most of the races are already going to be pretty gender-fluid by default, because as I said before it doesn't matter to the dead. I do understand wanting to feel like your character represents you, but this game might not be one to even have a lot of gender variations, aside from banshee, since we are playing horrific monsters.

Edited November 29, 2020 by shinybri

[Quamobrem]

I think it's important to recognize that "gender" isn't just reproduction, it's a lot of self-identification and more abstract things that can be very important to people. Like I see people say "The dead don't reproduce so they're agender" a lot but that's kinda not how it works. I'm trans and the medication I take to change my body means I will never be able to reproduce, but I'm still "gendered" and expressing a certain gender presentation (Though maybe I personally am not the best example, because I don't 100% identify as female. Slowly coming to like the term "demi-girl" more but that's kinda neither here nor there). Gender is not physical sexual characteristics (though the two are in some ways intertwined), it's a huge, complex web of cultural markers and... Honestly kinda more complicated of a thing than I want to try to explain here. And even *then*, undead still have human sexual characteristics because they used to be human, or at least look human. Like, "sex and gender don't matter as much to the undead" is great, but I guarantee it will matter to some of the people who end up playing this game if they have to keep looking at a character that gives them dysphoria, or if they feel like there are no people like them in this world. I just want to make things feel accessible and respectful to those people, even *if* the banshees are all women.

 

I actually very much like the idea of there being banshees that are still... femme, small and frail but with a slightly more masculine body that like a trans-man could feel good about. Even just "Let me make the character flat chested" would do a lot in that direction without compromising historical or in-game lore. Shorter hair options can help. If there are voice options (I hope there are) having a more androgynous voice option would help. Allowing you to set which pronouns NPCs refer to your character by can help (And who says a Banshee can't decide he wants to identify as male and starts murdering everyone who refuses to call him "he" until everyone learns better? : p). Being able to change your character's appearance after you've already made them will also help a lot when people realize they're trans after they've already started playing.

 

Most of all I think just not being dismissive is very important. That's the primary issue that I sometimes get a little upset about here, is that it sometimes feels like people want to throw out a quick "no" before even trying to work with people. Not all the time, and on the whole I think you've all been quite welcoming and willing to talk through things, but occasionally I do get annoyed, and I know there are other people who would feel a lot worse than I do, while being less emotionally capable of actually bringing any issues up.

[Vesmé]

"I actually very much like the idea of there being banshees that are still... femme, small and frail but with a slightly more masculine body that like a trans-man could feel good about. Even just "Let me make the character flat chested" would do a lot in that direction without compromising historical or in-game lore. Shorter hair options can help. If there are voice options (I hope there are) having a more androgynous voice option would help."

 

These are all great ideas. Plus I think that lots of people could appreciate these options.

 

"Allowing you to set which pronouns NPCs refer to your character by can help (And who says a Banshee can't decide he wants to identify as male and starts murdering everyone who refuses to call him "he" until everyone learns better?"

 

Ah, the dream!

[shinybri]

Maybe I was confusing the terms gender and sex? If so I apologize. Is it sex then that dictates that being female means I am expected to have babies? If I could rip out my womb and give it to someone who wants it I would do it in a heartbeat. People totally can be born the wrong gender and wish to change it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. My only point was, hm do I want this decayed somewhat feminine body or this decayed possibly male body? Like I am not going to relate to this corpse on the level I think you guys are talking about. For high fantasy based games where there is emphasis on character creation hell yes I better have all the options and more, but we even discussed a little bit in the after party chat how the appearance isn’t super important (can you tell me a difference between male and female wraith? I'm not sure if you'd even be able to tell, or if any human would say anything but "it" as they flee in terror). In the banshee's case it was never human like the rest, who probably had a gender identity in life that would carry over in whatever small ways. They are the direct link to their gods who can speak through them, created in whatever image said gods wanted; the player doesn't have control over that aspect of the game and is part of the story we're trying to figure out. I was trying to say they are a special case lore-wise, but perhaps that isn't the point you're trying to make.

 

Honestly I really like all of the ideas you have, especially being able to decide which pronouns the (undead) NPCs use. Is that a thing in another game or was that your idea? That small detail could make a big difference. You better call them whatever they want, because really, why would you even consider pissing that thing off? And your banshee ideas were what I was kinda trying to say but failing to. Boobs or no boobs, great. Start looking like an nfl quarterback and I'm done, though. I am positive the revenants or wraiths won't have a slider to give me huge tits, so we can't go expecting the reverse too. There will always be limits that will piss someone off, but I like that the devs are trying to stay consistent to their lore and not pander. Besides, the point of the game is to look less human and more monstrous, save for the banshee. They're are supposed to look small and unimposing from a distance, the true horror revealing the closer you get, a sort of mysterious entity that we don't know exactly what their motivation is/ why they're even there. Anyway fantastic ideas and I hope the devs see this. Thanks for having the patience to talk it out.

[Skull]

If they were just called body types and not Male and female you would not be having this problem and who cares if it locked to female only. A trans person will still be able to play a banshee all they have to do is change the body in the custom character creater to look more male if they want to role play that. You are getting too hung up on names.

[Skull]

It’s called role play so use your imagination. You don’t need every little detail added to the game just use your head. If I wanted to play a trans banshee or a male banshee it does not matter what the model looks like if I believe it’s one that all that matters. Everything does not need to be spelled out for you. Did people forget how to use their imagination. Am not trying to be mean here am just saying don’t get worked up over small details.

[shinybri]

If they were just called body types and not Male and female you would not be having this problem and who cares if it locked to female only. A trans person will still be able to play a banshee all they have to do is change the body in the custom character creater to look more male if they want to role play that. You are getting too hung up on names.

I get both sides of this, I never once thought it was strange to play a male character in a game despite identifying as female, but I also get just wanting a safe place where you can finally get to feel like yourself when the rest of the world doesn’t accept you. Video games have been an escape for many, but also there are video games designed to be just that. For example, it was pretty cool when Dragon Age made it possible to romance all the companions despite gender. However that was a MAJOR feature of the game whereas sexuality has zero meaning here.

[Skull]

I get both sides of this, I never once thought it was strange to play a male character in a game despite identifying as female, but I also get just wanting a safe place where you can finally get to feel like yourself when the rest of the world doesn’t accept you. Video games have been an escape for many, but also there are video games designed to be just that. For example, it was pretty cool when Dragon Age made it possible to romance all the companions despite gender. However that was a MAJOR feature of the game whereas sexuality has zero meaning here.

Plus don’t people know how much it cost to develop a game like adding any new feature no matter how small is going to cost a lot of money. You have to pay for the time it took to make that feature as well as pay for just having the employee or employees that worked on adding that. Being able to romance someone no matter gender would cost extra money to put in since you are going to have to have different dialogue depending on the gender your playing plus you may need to pay voice actors to say those lines as well to pay someone’s to code that in. The cost adds up fast

[Rx_Bishop_MD]

I think its important to remember that our "character" is not the shell that we possess but rather those are classes. In this world Banshees are of the female typing (as all lore suggests rather than two outliers that have been presented), and it seems there is no real way around that. Outside of typical cosmetics to enhance or take away from typical features that may seem more feminine for those that are more masculine. The thing that i love about games especially games that are online and community driven is that in the game you can be you. I dont need to know you in real life, and I dont need to know your personal stories or anything like that. You are who you are and thats what matters.

[CyanStargazer]

A good way of looking at this is that the Banshee "looks" female. It's never been alive so it doesn't really have a gender to begin with. It likely doesn't have a gender at all and it's appearance could be a possible hunting method. People discussed that during the stream, you'd think it as a beautiful woman from further away and given how they're weeping, most people would approach. By the time you find out that "you fucked up" you're probably going to die.

In short, the Banshee's gender is probably "Horror" rather than female.

[Calypso]

taking a break for a min: I’ve removed the blue ethereal color from the art. People who aren’t sold on the look maybe you will be now?

I loved all the variants/possible variants I saw. Would love an African American banshee as an option also because I ❤️ Black Women is all lol.

[ShadowNosgoth]

2nd hand Irishman here.

 

looking away from the header of this.

 

Games in both near and distance past have had classes locked behind race/gender and even factions before.

and I will give an example of each.

 

Elin (TERRA Online) Reaper class

Kerillian elf (Warhammer: Vermintide 1 & 2) Ranger

 

Paladins and Shamans (World of Warcraft 2004 & Now Classic)

 

This concept is nothing new.

Heck in looking back at the last time Psyonix made a LoK spin off (nosgoth), there were classes locked behind gender.

 

my tldr this isnt a build your own murder hobo workshop.

Each Class represents a type of Character with their own back story and motives and combat styles.

 

Lets wait for the game to come out and see from there first, before we bust out the silver and torches and pitchforks.

[Quamobrem]

I would like to be clear, again, in saying that "They're undead and therefore do not have gender" does not work. It's ok if you see your character that way, but from all the art I've seen all of these characters are in fact conforming to some type or other of gender expression. Which isn't a bad thing! Most characters do. It's just dismissive to tell people who *are* more invested in having characters that match their gender and sexual expression that actually there is no gender in this game when there rather obviously is. "Looking" female is the character presenting gender expression, even if internally the character does not conform to that gender.

 

For people saying "You can just make your character more masculine with the sliders" yes, thank you! That is precisely the kind of thing we're asking for, and that I feel we've been rather calm and measured in asking for.

 

Looking at the information we have on Ages, it seems rather clear to me that this is a game we can leave our mark on, where who our characters are and what they do will absolutely matter. For many people, including myself, leaving that kind of mark in a way that doesn't really represent me would feel hollow, empty, and even painful. To look at the history, think "I did that", and have that history look and feel nothing like me? That would hurt. It's fine if you don't feel the same way, but please, try to understand that other people will feel differently.

 

Finally, I'd like to thank the developers and staff, who have in my experience been willing to take these concerns into consideration. I will do my best to continue trying to make posts that are helpful to you. : >

[Quamobrem]

Oh also I'd be all about there being lots of skin and hair options for POC characters. : >

[Calypso]

throwing out a suggestion: for people who want something “gender neutral” with Banshee a skin of just literally a billowing cloak and a hood and that’s all you get could work. Or a skin that literally just decayed flesh and bones. Also I believe Jack said that the wraith and possibly goul? Are “gender neutral” as in the wraith is literally just a soul inhabited by whatever cloths suit the player. And I think the goul is beyond how humans understand whatever gender is ya know?

 

as far as the “muh representation!” “Muh male banshee!”

That’s all well and good and if the devs want to throw in later down the line whatever the Irish monster lore equivalent of a “male banshee” is cool. I believe it’s akin to a headless horseman archetype or where they legend originated from in the first place? But that it’s so far different from whatever a banshee is it’d be it’s own class type. That’s be cool.

 

I do believe in sticking to your guns on some things and if Denis, Jack and the rest of the team are keeping with the traditional lore of a banshee then so be it. Suck it and move on. Win some lose some but pandering and throwing off your vision to appease the audience is what ruins some games. Not that that’s what anyone is saying or asking for.

Yes the banshee from what I understand so far is an eternal being without any “gender” traditionally right? It’s just a ghost thing. I think the female aspect of this class and history perhaps comes from is shriek and that whenever anyone reported seeing or hearing one it always fell in line with “girl this, woman that”.

 

if there isn’t a male banshee akin to whatever the lore is, if it doesn’t fit the vision regardless after trying to make it fit or just comes off as a disservice to the grander scheme whatever that is? Then so be it. Scrap it. Stuff in games be it ideas, levels, objects, entire histories get scrapped left and right always with a littler bitter sweet sadness following behind.

Anybody who’s looks up the history or eternal darkness or legacy of kain and actually see how many possibly cool and or terrible ideas were cut for better or worse understands this. Or any game really. It’s just a part of the games industry.

 

now with all of that said: I simply agree with Denis and the team and whatever they have planned simply because we don’t really know where any of this is going yet and this small nitpick of a gender locked character may or may not even matter that much in the end ya know? Because we still don’t know that much. Now...where them sexy body pillows be baby?!

[CyanStargazer]

Yeah the Headless Horseman is the Dullahan, or the equivalent of the Grim Reaper. Funnily enough, Dullahan are terrified of gold, and will not come for your soul if you have even a pin head of gold in your house. As for being the equivalent of the Banshee or counterpart... eh? Dullahan have nothing dictating that they are one exclusive gender, only that they carry their heads, will throw a bucket of blood on you if you're in their path, thus marking you. But no really "It's this gender" firmness like the Banshee is in mythology.

[Quamobrem]

The traditional Banshee is an *extremely* gendered entity, the literal translation of its Irish name (bean si or ben sidhe) meaning something pretty close to "fairy woman". Like, if we're going purely by the tradition, they're not a type of undead at all, just a type of female fairy themed after the practice of "Keening", or wailing laments at someone's funeral, which was done by real life actual women. I do think it's a very good idea to respect those traditions, while still being mindful of how they might be made more accessible for modern audiences, particularly modern audiences that are often left out.

 

A fun thing I discovered while reading about traditional undead mythology: Apparently Jure Grando, one of the earliest accused vampires, was said to have sexually assaulted his widow. Obviously not quite the kind of gender or sexual expression I've been asking for, but certainly not sexless. : p

[Calypso]

[klokwerkaos]

2nd hand Irishman here.

 

looking away from the header of this.

 

Games in both near and distance past have had classes locked behind race/gender and even factions before.

and I will give an example of each.

 

Elin (TERRA Online) Reaper class

Kerillian elf (Warhammer: Vermintide 1 & 2) Ranger

 

Paladins and Shamans (World of Warcraft 2004 & Now Classic)

 

This concept is nothing new.

Heck in looking back at the last time Psyonix made a LoK spin off (nosgoth), there were classes locked behind gender.

 

my tldr this isnt a build your own murder hobo workshop.

Each Class represents a type of Character with their own back story and motives and combat styles.

 

Lets wait for the game to come out and see from there first, before we bust out the silver and torches and pitchforks.

I said as much that people will accept it, because it has been done before. It also never felt good and was ALWAYS an unnecessary pain point in ever instance it turned up in.

 

I've seen nothing from others that changes my stance on it, and I don't really care that others might disagree, because their argument has yet to invalidate mine in any way.

 

The only argument that does is "because the devs said so" and that's more of a matter of fact than a satisfying resolution.

 

Additionally, since the game is funded by cosmetics, yeah, it kinda is about playing dress up for your murder hobo, so that part of your argument is also invalid.

 

 

I think we all might be closer to the same side than it appears, because I wouldn't mind a gender-neutral banshee. That's what most of the classes are going to be, I predict, since gender does not matter to the dead. Gender is how life procreates, which the dead don't do. We might be thinking too much in terms of pop culture or the current cultural tensions that I know a lot of my friends have to deal with every single day. I think what I personally am arguing against is a super buff traditionally manly banshee, as that would be absolutely wreck the immersion for me. But your banshee doesn't have to look like the one they showed today. I want to see some frail-ass ghastly banshees, and I don't care bout the boobs. Great if they're there, great if they're not. But the slider has to stop somewhere to keep it within the lore. Isn't it kind of taking away from all identifying women, who get a class where men are excluded? Seeing a role that only a woman/ feminine identifying can absolutely destroy with, it just means something to me if that makes sense. I do understand that it's impossible to make everyone happy but we can make compromises along the way.

 

Having said all this, what do you guys think would be a good way to represent nonbinary and trans? So others can have that same feeling I described above about watching women wreck shit. Suggestions would be awesome, maybe another class can be that representation that definitely does need to be in more games. I do however think most of the races are already going to be pretty gender-fluid by default, because as I said before it doesn't matter to the dead. I do understand wanting to feel like your character represents you, but this game might not be one to even have a lot of gender variations, aside from banshee, since we are playing horrific monsters.

Gender isn't about reproduction, it's a social construct as an expression of femme vs masculine, and those things are largely arbitrary and change over time. Consider Theodore Roosevelt, a really strong man's man of his time, was pictured in a dress as a young child, because that's how it was at the time.

 

The concepts of "pink for girls and blue for boys" is also relatively new to the species. All in all the concept of gender is stupid, speaking as het, cis, white, male. It literally solves nothing, is subject to mass differences based on culture and time period and geographic location, and literally solves no social ill, while managing to be a point of oppression for marginalized people (women, gender non comforming, etc.). Gender is first up against the wall when I am king.

 

Biological sex on the other hand, is entirely separate, and medically speaking, does matter... unless of course, you're undead and don't procreate... which is exactly the case, and that means literally nothing here because undead don't procreate traditionally, instead they are made, which makes them closer to stuff like worms that make more worms from themselves.

 

Point being, Nothing I am referring to is about gender. I'm talking about cosmetics. There is nothing stopping a trans person from saying their banshee has a wang, or that their manly revenant has a vagina. All of that is perfectly viable according to Dennis in an other thread. What isn't possible is to have the combat mechanics of the banshee and appear masculine.

 

Strictly speaking, people shouldn't be boxed in on cosmetics for game mechanics, that's always bad form, especially when the game is funded by cosmetics... if nothing else it's a bad business strategy. I understand the "why" of the decision, I just think it's a bad decision from every angle, including their lore in game.

 

Consider that the banshee was never alive, that means it's an other worldly creature from beyond the veil as stated... and yet... when these creatures take humanoid form... for some reason they must have boobs, because reasons... No thanks, not cool by me.

 

Challenge to anyone: Why MUST otherworldly creatures take boob having form when appearing humanoid?

 

Take all the time you need. The concept of tradition doesn't apply, because these banshees already differ in lore from the traditional.

 

If there's a coherent and passable explanation for why boobs must happen for magical creatures from beyond the veil, I'll be happy to hear it.

Edited November 29, 2020 by klokwerkaos

[Faceless Mike]

[Varik Keldun]

There are only a few changes in the lore to fit within the world - they (the devs) stated they wanted to stick with an Irish style Banshee

an Irish Folklore Banshee is.

- Originated from Keening Women - Females who sang at funerals

when folklore was established they turned into

Banshee - Beánsidhé - Beán: Woman, Sidhé: Fairy / other kind

 

- woman of the fairy mounds

- it is a spirit that just exists, it was not human before becoming a spirit

- mainly takes on 3 human forms (all female)

- when / if it took on other forms (animal) it was depicted as crow, stoat, hare or weasel, animals associated with witchcraft in Ireland.

- normally depected in a grey or white cloak

- is constantly combing her hair, it is a bad sign to pick up a random comb on the ground in Ireland.

- not known to actually attack anyone but people who heard her cries would usually die a violent and horrible death within a week.

 

So what are the BIG changes that the Devs made for deadhaus?

- woman of the fairy mounds

-- Woman of an elder god

 

- it is a spirit that just exists, it was not human before becoming a spirit

--it is a spirit that just exists, and was sent by elder god.

- mainly takes on 3 human forms (all female)

-- umm... Physical, Magical, Essential

- when / if it took on other forms (animal) it was depicted as crow, stoat, hare or weasel, animals associated with witchcraft in Ireland.

--accessories that were shown in the previews represented the witchcraft aspect (though we don't know if it will have these other forms)

 

- normally depicted in a grey or white cloak

--depicted in a grey/white gown

- is constantly combing her hair, it is a bad sign to pick up a random comb on the ground in Ireland.

--Is / was planned to be an item / accessory for the banshee

 

- not known to actually attack anyone but people who heard her cries would usually die a violent and horrible death within a week.

--Given claws and the ability to do combat in the game and give violent horrible deaths within a minute

 

if this were a Ubume or Pontianak would there be any question as to why it couldn't be a male sticking as close to the banshee lore as the devs have?