Today it was reaffirmed that banshees are going to be gender locked...

[Skull]

There are only a few changes in the lore to fit within the world - they (the devs) stated they wanted to stick with an Irish style Banshee

an Irish Folklore Banshee is.

- Originated from Keening Women - Females who sang at funerals

when folklore was established they turned into

Banshee - Beánsidhé - Beán: Woman, Sidhé: Fairy / other kind

 

- woman of the fairy mounds

- it is a spirit that just exists, it was not human before becoming a spirit

- mainly takes on 3 human forms (all female)

- when / if it took on other forms (animal) it was depicted as crow, stoat, hare or weasel, animals associated with witchcraft in Ireland.

- normally depected in a grey or white cloak

- is constantly combing her hair, it is a bad sign to pick up a random comb on the ground in Ireland.

- not known to actually attack anyone but people who heard her cries would usually die a violent and horrible death within a week.

 

So what are the BIG changes that the Devs made for deadhaus?

- woman of the fairy mounds

-- Woman of an elder god

 

- it is a spirit that just exists, it was not human before becoming a spirit

--it is a spirit that just exists, and was sent by elder god.

 

- mainly takes on 3 human forms (all female)

-- umm... Physical, Magical, Essential

 

- when / if it took on other forms (animal) it was depicted as crow, stoat, hare or weasel, animals associated with witchcraft in Ireland.

--accessories that were shown in the previews represented the witchcraft aspect (though we don't know if it will have these other forms)

 

- normally depicted in a grey or white cloak

--depicted in a grey/white gown

- is constantly combing her hair, it is a bad sign to pick up a random comb on the ground in Ireland.

--Is / was planned to be an item / accessory for the banshee

 

- not known to actually attack anyone but people who heard her cries would usually die a violent and horrible death within a week.

--Given claws and the ability to do combat in the game and give violent horrible deaths within a minute

 

if this were a Ubume or Pontianak would there be any question as to why it couldn't be a male sticking as close to the banshee lore as the devs have?

Just stop talking to @klokwerkaos because he is not going stop until he gets his way. Plus he is the only one that wants this.

[Calypso]

The banshees in Deadhaus still follow traditional Irish lore. They are messengers, prophets, seers, guides etc. others have already pointed out and even corrected me that Banshee literally means “woman of the other world” or “fairy woman” literally in the name. There’s no scurrying by the traditional lore or using other branches of traditional lore with other classes like the vampire that has multiple interpretations because Banshees only hail from Celtic myth. If there’s any other evidence of Banshee like tales from other world regions please provide.

 

In regards To why MUST other worldly being take the form of women well? They don’t. And because others don’t we have our branching male/female classes. Anybody can be a Rev if you hate enough, a vamoire if you have a bad run in, a wraith if you are dedicated enough, a liche if you are willing to achieve ultimate power but a banshee? It’s in the name. It’s in the history. It’s the only one of the classes so far that is so deeply rooted in the lore of its name, origin and role within the universe that it is gender locked because there’s no viable evidence historically that dude banshees exist because banshee doesn’t even mean Male. Like I suggested maybe down the line getting the “male equivalent” of a Banshee(lady of the other world, fairy woman) would be a headless horseman like character but that’d be it’s own class on its own rather than falling under the Banshee(fairy woman, lady of the world world) tree.

 

Look it’s not like they didn’t try. They did. Somethings just don’t work and if the Devs try and are unhappy with it. Good enough for me. Thanks for trying. Game Development am I right?

[Skull]

[Reckoning]

[shinybri]

Challenge to anyone: Why MUST otherworldly creatures take boob having form when appearing humanoid?

 

Reverse challenge: Why MUST otherworldly creatures take penis-having form when appearing humanoid?

 

Take all the time you need. We have already had a thoughtful conversation about this and you aren't adding anything. It's the lore the devs want, it's historically accurate, it's what the Elder Gods chose for their messengers. Gender IS cosmetic, but this one particular cosmetic choice is not the players' to make. Plus we don't know how much control we'll have- just because KEEVA the SPECIFIC BANSHEE here has boobs, doesn't mean you have to. No one bitched that the Revenant has manly qualities in his picture. I wonder why that is? And there are so many other classes that aren't shrouded in mystery, where you were once a gendered human. This is such a small part of the game. I vote we rest this topic for now, until more is revealed by the devs.

Edited November 29, 2020 by shinybri

[Skull]

Reverse challenge: Why MUST otherworldly creatures take penis-having form when appearing humanoid?

 

Take all the time you need. We have already had a thoughtful conversation about this and you aren't adding anything. It's the lore the devs want, it's historically accurate, it's what the Elder Gods chose for their messengers. Gender IS cosmetic, but this one particular cosmetic choice is not the players' to make. Plus we don't know how much control we'll have- just because KEEVA the SPECIFIC BANSHEE here has boobs, doesn't mean you have to. No one bitched that the Revenant has manly qualities in his picture. I wonder why that is? And there are so many other classes that aren't shrouded in mystery, where you were once a gendered human. This is such a small part of the game. I vote we rest this topic for now, until more is revealed by the devs.

Plus the Banshee tits would be decomposing flesh anyway. so i don't see why you have a problem with it having boobs

[klokwerkaos]

Reverse challenge: Why MUST otherworldly creatures take penis-having form when appearing humanoid?

 

Take all the time you need. We have already had a thoughtful conversation about this and you aren't adding anything. It's the lore the devs want, it's historically accurate, it's what the Elder Gods chose for their messengers. Gender IS cosmetic, but this one particular cosmetic choice is not the players' to make. Plus we don't know how much control we'll have- just because KEEVA the SPECIFIC BANSHEE here has boobs, doesn't mean you have to. No one bitched that the Revenant has manly qualities in his picture. I wonder why that is? And there are so many other classes that aren't shrouded in mystery, where you were once a gendered human. This is such a small part of the game. I vote we rest this topic for now, until more is revealed by the devs.

As I understand it the revenant isn't restricted to be masculine cosmetically because it has a pic that shows it as such, ie, just because the art shows it as such doesn't mean it is gender locked specifically. If that were the case, i'd be against that as well. Simply put, the problem isn't the depiction chosen, but the lack of control with cosmetics. There is a big difference between "this is iconic art" and "this is locked so you don't get a choice".

[klokwerkaos]

-- Woman of an elder god

Why woman then? Since when do elder gods even consider silly human social constructs like gender?

 

The very notion of elder gods at the highest level is that they aren't even necessarily malicious to humans and such, they just cause mass chaos by existing near them as a consequence of their immense power.

 

It's like a human stepping on an ant hill without realizing it. That's like, the core of the concepts of elder gods from the Lovecraftian mythos.

 

Pretend for a moment you are making an ant emissary because magic and reasons... are you really going to spend a whole lot of time on ant gender and social customs to have your ant emissary to tell them to move their hill or be squashed, or just send something that is vaguely ant-like because your form of communication would otherwise destroy them?

 

The whole things falls apart in logic. The only reason is "because reasons" and that doesn't sit right. It's acceptable enough in the sense that sure, they have that right, it's not in a sense of lore consistency, or what is most beneficial to players. Because of that I'm against it.

[CyanStargazer]

The reason they look like women is probably because humans are stupid, and still listen to the basic of basic instincts. If they see a woman all alone, and crying, they'll probably move to either comfort or rescue them. And end up as a tasty snack. Said Banshee might also take their soul and feed it to their elder gods. As I said, the Banshee's probably don't have a gender, just a form to make hunting stupid humans stupid easy. That being, a frail woman form. Assuming that their gender is not there for a reason, makes an ass out of you and me. And probably a tasty snack for a banshee if you were living in this world.

[Reckoning]

The whole things falls apart in logic. The only reason is "because reasons" and that doesn't sit right. It's acceptable enough in the sense that sure, they have that right, it's not in a sense of lore consistency, or what is most beneficial to players. Because of that I'm against it.

 

Since you seem to have trouble reading, allow me to make my text real big just for you

THE LOGIC: THE DEVELOPERS WANT A BASIS IN MYTHOLOGY

 

Is that clear enough for you this time? Just because YOU can't grasp it "logically" does NOT preclude it from being logical.

 

WHEN THE ROOM SAYS YOU'RE DRUNK, SIT DOWN.

[Varik Keldun]

Pretend for a moment you are making an ant emissary because magic and reasons... are you really going to spend a whole lot of time on ant gender and social customs to have your ant emissary to tell them to move their hill or be squashed, or just send something that is vaguely ant-like because your form of communication would otherwise destroy them?

it's funny that you use ANTS a species that is made up mostly of females and ruled by 1 queen who gives all the rules.

the only "emissary" you could possibly send in this situation is a FEMALE queen that would have to mimic the current queen for the drones to obey it instead of just being attacked and killed before it could "relay the message..." which in this case would just be a killing the old queen and getting new orders from the new queen (The mimic) instead.....

 

so I have to send a FEMALE "emissary" in this case.

 

Drones only listen to their queen.... and they are ALL females... the males are just there to give to the queen then die shortly after...

 

 

on a side note....

The elder god(s) presented here would have a higher intelligence and understanding of that which they are manipulating or controlling and would know these things, and if they WANTED to give a chance to said ant colony to move they would take the proper means to accomplish it.... otherwise they wouldn't even send an emissary to the colony in the 1st place.... why waste the time and effort....

 

Because.... LOGIC....

Edited November 30, 2020 by Varik Keldun

[Roband]

This discussion made me curious and i decided to take a look on google

 

apparentley a male version of this spirit is mentioned in several webpages that talk about irish mitology, the are called "Far-shee" (Fear Sidhe) litteraly a man fairy or Man of the Hill (since in irish mytology banshee too are deemed to be a type of fairy spirit associeted with death and omens of disaster)

 

here is a link of the book from wich i found these info (but there several others):

 

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809531534/internetsacredte

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/cml/cml15.htm

 

i couldn't find much about this variant, most of what i found are just mentions of his figure (some more informations in some paranormal blogs but i didn't find solid sources in them, only "i taked about him with irish folk" which i wouldn't define exactly as reiable)

 

Anyway nothing remotely usable for the developement of a playable undead, too few informations, lack of reliable lore material and too many uncertainties (interesting non the less)

 

Hopefully some Irish fan of the game could one day provide more details about this

 

 

 

 

About the gender issue i think that a solid character creator can make everyone happy, at least for the classes that have the luck of possessing an intact (well.. more or less) body

 

becouse you know... about liches and wraiths i think there no need to explain

 

ghouls remind me from the cocept art of the falmer from the elder scroll series... i mean.. how do you even plan do create a more femine/masculine character on them? you can barely tell the males from the females and only at very very very close distance

 

banshee.. it is what it is, you may like it or not but lore wise they are females (and even semantic wise)

you still have space to move around imo, they may be only female like but i feel they will have the more good looking bodies and faces among the undeads (unless you deribetely choose to make them more decaing), vampires don't count (uninteded pun) because their good looking body is just a facade

 

revenant.. ok

 

vampire.. they can shapeshift in any beauty they want to be! we don't know the details yet but if you change your illusion appereance even in sex i would say it's perfect! npcs that know you will still refer to the gender that you decide early on and you can just change the illusion body to your liking (i'm making assumptions of course)

 

Anyway during the streams you can hear many times that character personalisation will be a big part of the game (i mean... ok for the merchandise but it will still be mostly fonded by cosmetic items so it makes perfect sense to me)

 

Character creator is basically the first and more incisive (but there may be ways to change your body later on for all we know) personalisation of your own character, i am sure it will be a good tool

[Faceless Mike]

Hopefully some Irish fan of the game could one day provide more details about this

As an Irish fan of the game, living in Ireland (born and raised) I was completely dismissed out of hand as apparently my knowledge doesn't seem to count to some folks. Setting aside my hobbies and some work over the years have been entirely about our folklore.

[Elveone]

As a dabbler in Irish mythology - the shee, sidhe, sith or aos si are a class of creatures most commonly described as fairies and not one specific species. In addition to the Banshee you've probably heard of the Cat Sith or the Cu Sith the fairy cat and dog and there is also the Leanan Sidhe - the fairy lover but not all of the sidhe are referenced as "something shee". A quick search of the Far Shee finds a reference to it being a Leprechaun. IMO the closest male variant to the Banshee in terms of a bad omen bringer of death would be the Dullahan as it is a headless rider holding his head into this hands that rides into the night and when he stops in front of a househould a person in that household would die. When he calls out the person's name and that person would die and the Dullahan would take his soul.

[Faceless Mike]

As a dabbler in Irish mythology - the shee, sidhe, sith or aos si are a class of creatures most commonly described as fairies and not one specific species. In addition to the Banshee you've probably heard of the Cat Sith or the Cu Sith the fairy cat and dog and there is also the Leanan Sidhe - the fairy lover but not all of the sidhe are referenced as "something shee". A quick search of the Far Shee finds a reference to it being a Leprechaun. IMO the closest male variant to the Banshee in terms of a bad omen bringer of death would be the Dullahan as it is a headless rider holding his head into this hands that rides into the night and when he stops in front of a househould a person in that household would die. When he calls out the person's name and that person would die and the Dullahan would take his soul.

You are right and an sidhe, but I wouldn't say O'Sullivan is the closest. It would probably be the Gray Man / man of the mist / wild Hunt being the closest if there was a close comparative at all

[Elveone]

While I can see the parallels with the wild hunt to some extent I disagree that it is similar to the banshee for two reasons. First - it is not an individual but an army of supernatural creatures. Second - it is most commonly the cause of the death rather than the harbinger of it and it is on a far larger scale in general. I am not familiar with the Gray Man and the man of the mist and the only things I seem to be finding online do not seem to be related to the concept of the banshee in any way so can you please elaborate on those?

 

Also I am guessing you are writing from a phone and the autocorrect did a number on your post.

[Faceless Mike]

While I can see the parallels with the wild hunt to some extent I disagree that it is similar to the banshee for two reasons. First - it is not an individual but an army of supernatural creatures. Second - it is most commonly the cause of the death rather than the harbinger of it and it is on a far larger scale in general. I am not familiar with the Gray Man and the man of the mist and the only things I seem to be finding online do not seem to be related to the concept of the banshee in any way so can you please elaborate on those?

 

Also I am guessing you are writing from a phone and the autocorrect did a number on your post.

Yeah silly autocorrect ruined me on many occasions. From a folklore standpoint (forget movies and videogames for now) the while hunt, the grey man and the man of the mist are all rooted from the same legend. They are the coming of the frost. The dew in the morning, the creeping death. All from Celtic / Dacian / Thracian. In Irish folklore the man of the mist ( jack frost to those who don't get it) does not so much cause death but signals it as the coming of the frost with it brings death from exposure, Illnesses, killing crops and animals and such. They grey man is very similar but is the mountain version where the Banshee would be the valley/ Lakeland or river version (story changes depending on who is telling it or where you live). The wild Hunt is the same as jack frost so to speak. The same explanations from different territories. And just to pop the bubble, sadly it comes down to foxes... 😉

[Elveone]

I can see where you are coming from but I disagree because I think we are talking legends and attributed qualities of mythological creatures and not their non-mythological sources. Moreover I think that the wild hunt's historical inspiration might stem as much from invading nomadic armies as from the frost and the mists.

[Faceless Mike]

I can see where you are coming from but I disagree because I think we are talking legends and attributed qualities of mythological creatures and not their non-mythological sources. Moreover I think that the wild hunt's historical inspiration might stem as much from invading nomadic armies as from the frost and the mists.

A lot of it varies depending on what qualifying sources you wish to draw from, especially considering many of these come from areas where their stories and cultures were handed down in oral traditions. But good to know not only is my culture wrong according to many Americans but I'll need to inform a few Polish and Romanian friends and relatives that their history and cultures are also incorrect. Anyone else need to make any historical corrections to the old world we need to be aware of?

 

also, not the best example, but a quick search brings up: https://norse-mythology.org/the-wild-hunt/

Edited December 2, 2020 by Faceless Mike

[Elveone]

A lot of it varies depending on what qualifying sources you wish to draw from, especially considering many of these come from areas where their stories and cultures were handed down in oral traditions. But good to know not only is my culture wrong according to many Americans but I'll need to inform a few Polish and Romanian friends and relatives that their history and cultures are also incorrect. Anyone else need to make any historical corrections to the old world we need to be aware of?

 

also, not the best example, but a quick search brings up: https://norse-mythology.org/the-wild-hunt/

It is not like your ancestors told you specifically that the stories of the wild hunt are based on a specific event or a concept - it is a scholar analyzing the stories that gives you that conclusion. And it is likely not "either or" in this case - it is most likely both as those events did happen historically and they were part of the forming of the culture of a lot of places.

 

Would you mind not involving nations and cultures in this matter overall and keep the discussion on a friendly interpersonal level? My opinion does not invalidate anyone elses and neither does yours. If you want to get geographical - it is 2 PM here right now. I am not a native of Ireland or Scotland which is why I asked you for the stories about those creatures that you were talking about and I've never heard about. Still we all have stories passed down to us and some o them might be more common than you would think from an initial glance. There are quite a few books to read on different matters as well. If you want to stick with a single opinion - you are welcome to. But in those matters I found discussion to be far more productive than a solid stance of something we can never be sure about as we are distanced from it by centuries and we have no firm historical documentation about. I would continue to elaborate on my thoughts only if you ask me to... or if somebody else does but I can assure you my assumptions are far from baseless

[Calypso]

All of these answer are just semi reinforcing that a "Male Banshee" isnt really a thing from what I've gathered skimming already. A character creator would be nice even if its "pick head A, B, or C". I'm wondering if it will come later on down the line? the team is really tiny so i cant imagine it will be anytime soon. I imagine if there will be one later it most likely will take from Warframe or Bloodborne.

[Roband]

As an Irish fan of the game, living in Ireland (born and raised) I was completely dismissed out of hand as apparently my knowledge doesn't seem to count to some folks. Setting aside my hobbies and some work over the years have been entirely about our folklore.

 

Do you ever heard of the term "Farshee" before?

 

Seeing the discussion between you and Elveone i'm starting to belive that this Farshee and the Man of the Mist/the Gray Man could be the same figure with a different name maybe due to being terms from different areas of Ireland

 

One thing that i noticed is that this "male shee" doesn't seem to scream like his female counterpart, at least for what i could find screams are never mentioned (still he exert the same role as a bringer of death/disaster)

 

All i could find about his "voice" was in a blog about paranormal (so as i said don't take this as a reiable source) where it is described to make a sort of guttural rattle almost like an animal cry, i don't know if this ring any bells to you guys

[Reckoning]

Do you ever heard of the term "Farshee" before?

 

Seeing the discussion between you and Elveone i'm starting to belive that this Farshee and the Man of the Mist/the Gray Man could be the same figure with a different name maybe due to being terms from different areas of Ireland

 

One thing that i noticed is that this "male shee" doesn't seem to scream like his female counterpart, at least for what i could find screams are never mentioned (still he exert the same role as a bringer of death/disaster)

 

All i could find about his "voice" was in a blog about paranormal (so as i said don't take this as a reiable source) where it is described to make a sort of guttural rattle almost like an animal cry, i don't know if this ring any bells to you guys

Farshee isn't a thing.

[Skull]

Farshee isn't a thing.

i bet they just googled it and took it at face value. When people can make up anything on the internet and say it is fact. It most properly started as fan fiction. Plus i would trust an Irishman more then some people who just looked at google.

[Reckoning]

i bet they just googled it and took it at face value. When people can make up anything on the internet and say it is fact. It most properly started as fan fiction. Plus i would trust an Irishman more then some people who just looked at google.

 

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=farshee,banshee

 

 

No, it just isn't a thing.