Dark Entity Posted November 8, 2020 Posted November 8, 2020 Hey guys, Wondering how much time has been spent on developing combat mechanics for Deadhaus so far. I truly believe this can make or break a game, and I am curious what the strategy for this is at this time. Has there been any discussion or plans revealed on how the combat system will work? 2
Golden Xan Posted November 8, 2020 Posted November 8, 2020 I was hoping to hear about this soon, too. Especially since this is one major part of what we'll be doing. I know everything we've seen of combat so far is probably gonna be reworked. They haven't made any announcements or reveals as of yet, but any indication of that would be most welcome. 2
klokwerkaos Posted November 9, 2020 Posted November 9, 2020 My guess is it's still too early to reveal too much since we don't even have full run downs and artwork of all base classes as of this post, let alone the unique abilities they have. I'm sure it will come, but I would think it's so early in development that anything they show us right now is likely only halfway to being demo ready, let alone tuned and polished, otherwise they'd be excited and showing us as soon as it was ready 2
Dark Entity Posted November 9, 2020 Author Posted November 9, 2020 My guess is it's still too early to reveal too much since we don't even have full run downs and artwork of all base classes as of this post, let alone the unique abilities they have. I'm sure it will come, but I would think it's so early in development that anything they show us right now is likely only halfway to being demo ready, let alone tuned and polished, otherwise they'd be excited and showing us as soon as it was ready That makes sense. I just didn’t know if they were seeking ideas or feedback ahead of time either.
klokwerkaos Posted November 10, 2020 Posted November 10, 2020 I mean it's hard to give them ideas on how to make it more enjoyable/engaging for players until we see at least their first prototype. That said, they are professionals with careers in exactly this business, so my guess is they have a good idea on what they are making. Once we see what they are cooking up I think that is likely to be the time to make better informed suggestions about the direction they are taking it in. Obviously they can't please everyone all the time, but given the reveals so far, I've been happy, and I expect that the combat systems will be similarly above expectations and the typical mediocre industry standards. If there's anything I can take away from Mr. Dyack's career it's that his games innovate and iterate, and with combat being such an important part of the game I believe we can expect better than run of the mill arkham or skyrim clones. Consider that while I don't believe Dennis worked on Dead Sun, they never got that out of baseline demo and it was as smooth as Arkham back then, and that was years ago. What will happen here is likely to be better in some respects in my opinion. 2
Dark Entity Posted November 10, 2020 Author Posted November 10, 2020 I mean it's hard to give them ideas on how to make it more enjoyable/engaging for players until we see at least their first prototype. That said, they are professionals with careers in exactly this business, so my guess is they have a good idea on what they are making. Once we see what they are cooking up I think that is likely to be the time to make better informed suggestions about the direction they are taking it in. Obviously they can't please everyone all the time, but given the reveals so far, I've been happy, and I expect that the combat systems will be similarly above expectations and the typical mediocre industry standards. If there's anything I can take away from Mr. Dyack's career it's that his games innovate and iterate, and with combat being such an important part of the game I believe we can expect better than run of the mill arkham or skyrim clones. Consider that while I don't believe Dennis worked on Dead Sun, they never got that out of baseline demo and it was as smooth as Arkham back then, and that was years ago. What will happen here is likely to be better in some respects in my opinion. Eh, don’t really agree with that bit, except yes the reveals have been awesome. I can tell that this studio has been very receptive to feedback and ideas, so it’s never to soon to start any sort of discussion on any topic surrounding the development. It seems sort of foolish to me sitting back and just assuming everything is going to be great because “they are professionals with careers in exactly this business”. That sort of thinking leads to the death of ideas and innovation for people or companies. However, I’m not saying they don’t have ability or creativity by any means, I am obviously a huge fan otherwise I wouldn’t be here; and, I grew up on Blood Omen. I’m also not here to whine or complain that there hasn’t been any discussion about combat yet. But it has to start somewhere, so I’m throwing the feelers out and making some inquiries. That being said, your synopsis of the “industry standard” isn’t really the standard anymore, there are many progressive attempts being made in medieval type combat since Dark Souls has basically revolutionized the standard on that.
Varik Keldun Posted November 10, 2020 Posted November 10, 2020 there are some pre alpha combat things you can see... again its all older stuff and most of it has been / will be scrapped but its an idea of what has already been considered. Here is our own Calypsos mixed tape of the development so far... at least up to memento Mori also... I mean it's hard to give them ideas on how to make it more enjoyable/engaging for players until we see at least their first prototype. They want us to give them feed back and ideas for what WE as the community want to see in the game... I know I have personally started a few threads / discussions on a few of the topics... Weapon / armor skins - a rumor mill for NPCs, even a potential Haus Idea called Beast Haus where humans fled cities in search of old gods in the wilderness (Think a druidic order) but in doing so they became humanoid creatures (think things along the lines of were creatures but non shapeshifting) for people that know D&D the refrences would be things like Kolbolds / Kenku / Lizardmen / Rakshasa / Trogolydtes ect... 1
Dark Entity Posted November 10, 2020 Author Posted November 10, 2020 there are some pre alpha combat things you can see... again its all older stuff and most of it has been / will be scrapped but its an idea of what has already been considered. Here is our own Calypsos mixed tape of the development so far... at least up to memento Mori also... They want us to give them feed back and ideas for what WE as the community want to see in the game... I know I have personally started a few threads / discussions on a few of the topics... Weapon / armor skins - a rumor mill for NPCs, even a potential Haus Idea called Beast Haus where humans fled cities in search of old gods in the wilderness (Think a druidic order) but in doing so they became humanoid creatures (think things along the lines of were creatures but non shapeshifting) for people that know D&D the refrences would be things like Kolbolds / Kenku / Lizardmen / Rakshasa / Trogolydtes ect... Thanks buddy. I did watch the pre alpha stuff long before backing this project. It did seem a bit chaotic which is another reason why I am asking about this. I love the concept of this game, and the fact that they do look for feedback from the community. I also love that Beast Haus idea, I’ve heard Dennis refer a few things to “lovecraftian” and what you stated there reminds me of that as well.
Varik Keldun Posted November 10, 2020 Posted November 10, 2020 @Dark Entity Another Haus Idea (beasthaus) Theres a link to the forum post on it... its an older post from Apr and I should consolidate it, revamp, and update it - but theres the original if ya want to look... and yes the original idea was based off of a lovecraftian theme but throwing in other creature types Mostly D&D related (cause thats what i know the best for reference) to fill out the haus.... Read shadow over innsmuth 1
klokwerkaos Posted November 10, 2020 Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) They want us to give them feed back and ideas for what WE as the community want to see in the game... I mean I get that, and I've seen those same snippets from the video for combat so far, but again it's all getting scrapped and as a baseline, it's not bad to look at. The pre-alpha combat stuff isn't terribly innovative and exciting to see, but like you said, it's already scrapped several times. What I can say is when it comes to a combat system there needs to several things at play to satisfy: Momentum & Fluidity - combat needs to be pushing forward, start and stop mechanics kill engagement and immersion. The more seamless the better for combo stuff, obvious exceptions to this exist in the form of big boom specials and such. For all it's flaws warframe does to momentum correctly and also adds to the mix with unique combo stances per weapon, which is something I'd like to see here as well, so that a flail plays differently than a halberd, and a single hatchet is different from a dual hatchet (beyond just limiting casting and more physical damage). Chewy & Chunky - enemies need to be able to take a hit and give a hit. One of the things that a lot of studios are getting wrong lately. Enemies often get overly spongey, or paper thin as the game goes on. Another issue is the Arkham problem, where it "feels like" there are a bunch of enemies trying to get you, but really, they are just lined up to try to hit you one at a time. This creates the "batman illusion" where you are always winning and always the bad ass, but never in any real danger. The reason this kinda needs to be fixed in this game is because batman is very mortal. When playing the undead we are not mortal but supernatural, and the enemies need to be buffed a little in the smarts division to compensate for that... ie, you may be a vampire, but try not to get surrounded by 4 hunters with silver swords and armor because they won't politely wait their turn to attack you, instead use a movement ability to reposition. The proper balance of chewy and chunky means that I am in a state of constant risk v reward, and that is when combat is most satisfying not only to play, but also to stream. Progression & Augmentation- Character classes need abilities to select from and associated custom ability trees to create complexity and depth to how one customizes their playstyle. This is also true of a character passive tree (either unique to the class or each class starts in a different area, leaning towards the former for balance reasons). Trees can get out of hand like PoE, which while I really enjoy that game, you kinda need a math degree and make it your life's work to achieve top level success. I believe there is a good middle ground between PoE and Diablo 3's dummy customization. I feel like Last Epoch has a passive tree for characters and abilities and is probably be nailing it, because you have enough depth between the two sets to create something very unique and complex so that even people that play the same class can vary wildly based on the abilities and passives they augment. The main difference is with Last Epoch they view classes and specializations more like how each class might play in the trinary config, at least that's my impression. Customization of weapon quality is also another thing where micro-optimzations need to be at play, otherwise that quickly scales out of control and balance goes out the window. Fun & Wow Factor - This is entirely subjective and you can't really give feedback on this till there's a playable demo, and even then, that's to say nothing about the longevity of the system. Really to test this you need to complete a playthrough with the worst gear and passive picks and aternately the best min/max gear and see where to tune it so that it's still possible to be completed by the former, and still not an exercise in brain death due to boredom to do the latter. Generally the best way to do this is to make combat have micro optimizations rather than giant discrepancies that scale out of hand faster, while making progression feel just meaningful enough that it's worth doing. Having a unique and interesting playstyle for each class also falls in here, as well as some nifty animations, and I think with the states thing, if they handle that well, will be enough to give combat a unique identity in this game. That said I'm not sure that any of that isn't something the team isn't already painfully aware of. I'm not a game developer and all this stuff is readily apparent to me. I'd be very concerned if this stuff wasn't "the basics" from their standpoint. There are other cool things to possibly discuss like movement and traversal powers and how in depth that can go on our wishlist, but I think generally more options would be better than less (obviously there is a cap on this for choice paralysis). Personally I hate when there are surfaces you can't climb as a supernatural being. Why can't I float up while in a mist form? Stuff like that which is all wishlist sorta things and that really needs more presented from them before I can really speak on any of that because we don't know what's being implemented yet and not. Other stuff like destructible scenery is fun, but how much of that can go into a persistent world is also highly questionable and also bring up things like world states and how people can use that to troll other players (ie, lets say a quest giver has a farm, he gives a quest based on which state the farm is in, destroyed or not, but if it's always destroyed by players then you can't get the other questline, it might make more sense instead that if their farm is destroyed they have less off a reward to offer). This is one of those things where too much player freedom can limit other player's freedom, and that of course, will be abused by players. There's probably more I'm not thinking of at the moment, but that's all just baseline player expectations I feel, and giving more feedback, i can't really imagine unless I understand more about the systems in place, which we haven't even finished character archetype reveals yet. Edited November 10, 2020 by klokwerkaos 1
Dark Entity Posted November 10, 2020 Author Posted November 10, 2020 Momentum & Fluidity - combat needs to be pushing forward, start and stop mechanics kill engagement and immersion. The more seamless the better for combo stuff, obvious exceptions to this exist in the form of big boom specials and such. For all it's flaws warframe does to momentum correctly and also adds to the mix with unique combo stances per weapon, which is something I'd like to see here as well, so that a flail plays differently than a halberd, and a single hatchet is different from a dual hatchet (beyond just limiting casting and more physical damage). Chewy & Chunky - enemies need to be able to take a hit and give a hit. One of the things that a lot of studios are getting wrong lately. Enemies often get overly spongey, or paper thin as the game goes on. Another issue is the Arkham problem, where it "feels like" there are a bunch of enemies trying to get you, but really, they are just lined up to try to hit you one at a time. This creates the "batman illusion" where you are always winning and always the bad ass, but never in any real danger. The reason this kinda needs to be fixed in this game is because batman is very mortal. When playing the undead we are not mortal but supernatural, and the enemies need to be buffed a little in the smarts division to compensate for that... ie, you may be a vampire, but try not to get surrounded by 4 hunters with silver swords and armor because they won't politely wait their turn to attack you, instead use a movement ability to reposition. The proper balance of chewy and chunky means that I am in a state of constant risk v reward, and that is when combat is most satisfying not only to play, but also to stream. Progression & Augmentation- Character classes need abilities to select from and associated custom ability trees to create complexity and depth to how one customizes their playstyle. This is also true of a character passive tree (either unique to the class or each class starts in a different area, leaning towards the former for balance reasons). Trees can get out of hand like PoE, which while I really enjoy that game, you kinda need a math degree and make it your life's work to achieve top level success. I believe there is a good middle ground between PoE and Diablo 3's dummy customization. I feel like Last Epoch has a passive tree for characters and abilities and is probably be nailing it, because you have enough depth between the two sets to create something very unique and complex so that even people that play the same class can vary wildly based on the abilities and passives they augment. The main difference is with Last Epoch they view classes and specializations more like how each class might play in the trinary config, at least that's my impression. Customization of weapon quality is also another thing where micro-optimzations need to be at play, otherwise that quickly scales out of control and balance goes out the window. Fun & Wow Factor - This is entirely subjective and you can't really give feedback on this till there's a playable demo, and even then, that's to say nothing about the longevity of the system. Really to test this you need to complete a playthrough with the worst gear and passive picks and aternately the best min/max gear and see where to tune it so that it's still possible to be completed by the former, and still not an exercise in brain death due to boredom to do the latter. Generally the best way to do this is to make combat have micro optimizations rather than giant discrepancies that scale out of hand faster, while making progression feel just meaningful enough that it's worth doing. Having a unique and interesting playstyle for each class also falls in here, as well as some nifty animations, and I think with the states thing, if they handle that well, will be enough to give combat a unique identity in this game. ABSOLUTELY! 2
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